Between the Porsche 911 964, 993, and 997--which chassis is the best?

"superdave847" (superdave847) 06/01/2019 at 13:36 • Filed to: Porsche 911, Porsche 964, Porsche 997, Porsche 993, Car Advice, Renn Sport, Carerra

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2006 997.1 for sale on Bring a Trailer

OPPOS —which is the best 911 of these three?

The 964, 993, or 997?

I have begun setting aside money to buy a sports car. I have a three year old girl and a boy on the way, so my plan is to raise them around cars, car clubs, and weekends at Cars & Coffee during the summer. I also like working on projects myself and like to learn how to do mechanical repairs. I would also  like to use it for long camping trips with my buddies like a drive around Lake Michigan.

In my view, a used 911 is the best all around sports car and if well cared for will not be a horrible investment. My gut says the 997 is the best buy right now (admittedly the 996 Turbo occasionally gets my attention, but I would regret it everytime I saw the headlights). Obviously, I’m only looking for a manual. I prefer two-wheel drive and a coupe, but those are not deal breakers for me.

Here are three that are currently for sale on Bring A Trailer.

997

I think the rear quarter view of the 997 is perfect Porsche. The size is right, it is modern, yet such a return to form. Plus, you can still see the engine, unlike the new ones.

Downside on the 997.1 is obviously the IMS issue—but boy there are a lot of these for sale in the high 20ks and 30ks. I could live with that risk.

Of these three models, I like the simplicity of the 964's interior the most, but would rank the 997 second.

964

I do return back to looking for 964s often. Obviously their prices have gone up quite a bit, but if you are willing to accept higher miles, they still can be had in the 30k range. The exterior and interior look like what a 911 should be.

Driving an air-cooled Porsche obviously brings the mental-baggage of putting miles on a car that could appreciate. But there are worse problems.

I love the simple cockpit.

Side benefit of the 964? If you ever hit it big or win the lottery, Singer Designs will make it beautiful for you.

993

Last is the one I like the least of these three, which happens to also be the most expensive of the three currently.

I think the 993 looks classic from the year, however, the I am not a fan of the nose.

I do like the clean, simple interior of the 993.

What is the verdict OPPO?

Or is the right answer to find an E36 or E46 M3? The 25 year mark just passed for importing European spec E36s!

Nibby > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:17

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this one

Spanfeller is a twat > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:19

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The 993 is a hard car to drive, i like it but its not refined, not like a newer car could be 

UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:21

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I would say 964 is the best all around, but honestly I think I’d have a 997 in the end, but that’s just me. 

BeaterGT > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:31

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I think 997 would be best, but not with those wheels pictured. They are atrocious.

Sounds like you’re on the fence between an ‘investment’ and a driver.

superdave847 > BeaterGT 06/01/2019 at 14:37

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Huh—I actually like those wheels, but taste is just that.

You r read on me is right.  I’m on the driver side—but don’t want to lose a lot of money, so I’m looking at simple, low mileage, base models with the right transmission.

If I were investing, I’d buy a 997 Turbo or Cayman GT4 .

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:37

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If you want to use it for trips, buy the newest one on the list because they are the most reliable. You can still DIY the maintenance.

If early 997, make sure the IMS got (or gets) upgraded.

superdave847 > Nibby 06/01/2019 at 14:37

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Perfect for a safari build.

superdave847 > UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy 06/01/2019 at 14:38

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I lean that way.

superdave847 > Spanfeller is a twat 06/01/2019 at 14:38

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What makes it hard to drive?  Does it do that snake bite if you brake too late?

superdave847 > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 06/01/2019 at 14:39

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Is there a fix for the 997.1? I’ve seen mixed reports on that.

MrDakka > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:39

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Neither, get the 981 Cayman instead

WilliamsSW > MrDakka 06/01/2019 at 14:43

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This would be correct, but I’m guessing he needs the back seat. 

MrDakka > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 14:43

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put baby in frunk?

WilliamsSW > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:45

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  I’ve only driven the 997 and loved it. I presume a 964 would be easier/ cheaper   to work on but maybe less reliable.

I’d drop the 993 from the list - pricey and your least favorite.

Spend a lot of time driving them all and researching - and have fun!

Spanfeller is a twat > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:46

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I drove the turbo.

The clutch is so heavy, gear is uncertain, it vibrates on everything, the brakes aren’t linear, steering is muted, has torque steer etc. The engine turns at 3k on the highway.

I like it; its a challenge. But its not as refined as a 458 for instance...

WilliamsSW > MrDakka 06/01/2019 at 14:49

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I see nothing wrong with that plan. 

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:51

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Depends on the year.  Late 997.1s and 987.1s can’t be upgraded without opening the block, although those IMSs are least likely to fail.  Most of the upgrade-able 997s and 987s are 2005-2006.

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 14:52

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Correct. The kids are kinda the point.

dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:55

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I would say 997, it’s the newest, most reliable, fastest, and importantly, the safest.

WilliamsSW > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 14:59

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Last year, I drove a 997, 981, and F82 M4 in an afternoon. All manuals. The Porsches were far better than the BMW IMHO. I liked the 981 best but loved the 997 too.

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 15:01

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That’s good info. My daily is a F30 and I don’t like the electronic steering.

WilliamsSW > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 15:04

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  That was part of it, but I really preferred the sound of the Porsches and the lag free torque. They rode better, too - without sacrificing handling.

I should note that both Porsches were convertibles, too. The BMW was not. 

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 15:11

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UnderSTeerEnthusiast - Triumph Fanboy > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 15:21

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I think there’s something to be said about the mix of old school and new with the 964, and how newer cars have gotten more cushy, but the 997 still has a classic 911 M.O. I look at my second car as one that’s mostly dedicated to fun, but could potentially be something I can take to work, get groceries, long trips to destinations (I.e. the 5.5-6 hour trek to Oppo TOTD) if needed or wanted. I think the 997 would fit that best, but it depends on how you look at it. 

superdave847 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/01/2019 at 15:28

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I want to be an AMG tech. But I screwed up and became a lawyer.

WilliamsSW > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/01/2019 at 15:28

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Those don’t have a back seat though do they? Plus no manual.

boredalways > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 15:52

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Which means you can now afford to pay a AMG  tech!

superdave847 > boredalways 06/01/2019 at 16:02

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I wish I were that kind of a lawyer 

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 16:20

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AMGtech - now with more recalls! > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 16:22

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Does the 911 have a rear seat? I mean one that can actually be used by real adults.

Don’t care about the manual. This is faster and will do a better job than I ever would, plus won't drive me nuts in traffic . If I want to shift I’ll get on my bike.

boredalways > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 16:28

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Public defender?

superdave847 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/01/2019 at 16:38

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I once sat in the rear seat of a 997 as an adult. It was horrible. But I can fit my kids back there easily.

I get that the PDK is faster, but I enjoy shifting. I’m not going to drag race—at least a lot.

superdave847 > boredalways 06/01/2019 at 16:40

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I clerked for the public defender in Chicago. I’m a plaintiff’s asbestos lawyer. 

Spanfeller is a twat > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 16:49

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I agree with oppo; get a newer, safer 997; the 993 is a death trap, I’d avoid carrying people inone

boredalways > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 16:52

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Awesome! I’m sure you can find any of the 55AMG’s as a weekend toy well under $15k...and possibly hook up with Alex of Legit Street Cars.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 17:22

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Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 17:25

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CLK55 (the silver one) has a backseat

WilliamsSW > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/01/2019 at 17:28

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  The OP just wants to put his kids in back though, and wants a manual.

I love it, just doesn’t fit his wants. 

WilliamsSW > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/01/2019 at 17:30

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That’s a CLK63 Black. They took the back seat out of the Black series. 

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 17:31

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Ohhhhh

Well

WELL!

If it we're a non-Black/DTS/GT? it would have a backseat.... !

WilliamsSW > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/01/2019 at 17:41

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True - the Black is the silly fun one though - 507 NA horsepower of tire shredding, grin inducing silliness. 

RallyWrench > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 17:45

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Define “best”? The 993 is the best of the aircooled chassis from a performance standpoint, stock for stock. Best suspension, best brakes, most power, most tire, most useful and modern interior. It’s also sexy. 964s are fun and comparatively cheap, but suffer from quality issues (Porsche was more less bankrupt at the time) and as the first power steering 911s don’t have quite the directness of their predecessors. The interior is more or less old 911 with a crappy steering wheel.

997s blow any (stock) aircooled car out of the water from a performance and driveability standpoint, full stop. They took all the bullshit out of the 996, and made a wonderful, modern car. The IMS isn’t a worry if you factor replacing it into your budget (with a clutch), buy a car with it done already, or buy a 997.2. Late M97 997.1s also are effectively not an IMS risk because replacing it requires engine disassembly and the late bearings, while the same style, don’t have nearly the failure rate. Because “has the IMS been done?” is the first question any potential buyer is going to ask, many have been replaced already simply for resale value. Cars that have been used regularly are also the lowest risk.

I like them all in their own ways, but of the above cars and for regular use or family duties, the 997 would be my choice, even a base 3.6 is a great, great car.

M3s are also cool, but almost all of them are in terrible condition . If you’re going to buy one of those, make it the best E46 you can find, last of the N/A inline-6 M cars. Euro E36s are neat, but parts for those engines are rare and effing s pendy. I know two guys who scrapped euro swap plans in their E36s in favor of just building a good US S52. You can get ITBs for them.

I should probably mention that I have 3 and 6 year olds and a 911SC... Let’s do this :)

RallyWrench > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/01/2019 at 17:50

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Indeed. 911 + some kind of Mercedes would be a perfect answer. Along those lines, I have two buddies here with W210 E55s now who are tempting me away from my E320 dad wagon goal. A good wagon is basically the same money as a 55 around here...

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > RallyWrench 06/01/2019 at 17:55

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Get the e320 and drop a 55 motor in it. Easy solution.

RallyWrench > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/01/2019 at 18:01

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That’s a dream, for sure. Even a 430 motor would be fun.  All the manuel swapped BMW 540 wagons are getting the bucks on BAT, but for a comfy and fast dad cruiser, give me a V8 W210 any day.

superdave847 > RallyWrench 06/01/2019 at 18:11

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This is a great post. Thank you for all that information. I agree that the 997 is the way to go.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 18:23

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I'll leave that to the experts as I putt around with 217hp

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 19:04

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Get a 996 turbo and some headlight covers; modern enough to be safe and pleasant; reliable; even if you add on miles depreciation won’t be bad.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > RallyWrench 06/01/2019 at 19:26

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There’s also the easy 4matic option to get the power down. 

WildlyMild > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/01/2019 at 20:41

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Evora is the correct answer for great car that will run and drive when you want it to. Porsche is the answer if you like learning new things and spending insane money on markes up parts.

itranthelasttimeiparkedit > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 21:45

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Only need a few big ones to make it the right decision =p I have worked for 2 “high end” plantiff’s firms, the good ones are damn good

WilliamsSW > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/01/2019 at 22:24

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That’s not terrible in a balanced car

- guy with 168 HP BMW ( ok plus 400 HP sedan)

superdave847 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/01/2019 at 22:56

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I love that this thread ended up here with engine swaps and 4-matic conversions.

superdave847 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/01/2019 at 22:56

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*easy*

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 22:57

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It’s a monster.

superdave847 > MrDakka 06/01/2019 at 22:58

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I would need to steal a snorkel off a Land Rover for  air flow. Otherwise, yes, this is a good idea.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 22:58

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Easier than an LS! I could do it in a weekend and I bet  tfritsch could too 

superdave847 > Spanfeller is a twat 06/01/2019 at 23:01

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I want to try one. I wish St. Louis had something Car Club of Manhattan or whatever.

superdave847 > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/01/2019 at 23:01

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Boy, the orange reflectors stick out on British Racing Green. Also, is that yours?

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 23:02

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This is the right take.

superdave847 > Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle 06/01/2019 at 23:02

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I googled this. It’s an interesting option. But, I just can’t--I’d regret it.

superdave847 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 06/01/2019 at 23:04

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Fricking awesome.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 23:39

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Heck no, I wish.

WilliamsSW > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 23:43

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I drove a 2013 E63 while shopping  last year too. Broke the tires loose at 35 mph without using full throttle. The CLK 63 Black would be a riot as long as you have a big tire budget.

WilliamsSW > superdave847 06/01/2019 at 23:45

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They’re all great cars - just a matter of finding the one that suits you best in the right condition.

Are you in Chicago?

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 23:47

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Chicago & northern suburbs are home. But, my wife and I m oved to STL in 2014 for our jobs.

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 23:52

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We lived on Campbell & W. Shakespeare in Logan Square during the Polar Vortex.

I had an BMW E46 back then. Everyday I had to shovel and scrape ice off that banked street, parallel park, dig out the next morning, then find another spot. What a crazy life.

At least there was a $3 car wash with free vacuums over on Fuller ton.

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 06/01/2019 at 23:53

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I love the E63. I would choose it over a 2013  M5 most days.

Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo > WilliamsSW 06/02/2019 at 00:11

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YOU

Spanfeller is a twat > superdave847 06/02/2019 at 00:52

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Turo? 

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > superdave847 06/02/2019 at 02:12

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I love how many different conversations this post sparked and how long they've been going on.

WilliamsSW > Dr. Zoidberg - RIP Oppo 06/02/2019 at 09:50

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Kidding aside the E46 is more fun to drive in a lot of ways.

WilliamsSW > superdave847 06/02/2019 at 09:57

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I test drove a lot of cars when shopping last year, including the 3 series, but I never even drove a 5er. New ones were more than I wanted to spend, and the 2-3 year old cars w eren’t reliable enough.  

WilliamsSW > superdave847 06/02/2019 at 10:00

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I lived at Division and Noble ( Kennedy) from 2006-2012. Had my E46 in the garage mostly there, and bought a Pathfinder to beat the hell out of on my commute. Moved to the SW burbs at the end of 2012, got married, now have 2 kids...

But still have the E46 and the Pathfinder for some reason. 

superdave847 > WilliamsSW 06/02/2019 at 10:29

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Nice! Back then I definitely buzzed by your place on my Triumph Speed Four heading to Ukrainian Village or Wicker Park.

DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! > superdave847 06/02/2019 at 19:55

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Just buck up and get a 996. It’s the best one that isn’t three figures or above.

superdave847 > DaftRyosuke - So Long and Thanks for All the Fish! 06/02/2019 at 20:22

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Why do you think it’s the best—  other than the price?